That is a powerful combination, works on corn or wheat too. That fits well in my fertility program in balancing the 17 nutrients for optimum growth focusing on the 10 or so we test and apply to the soil.

you may get booted dan,but this 79 year old farmer likes the way you write i may ne talways agree with what you write but you make me think. at m,y age ,thinking is problly the best exersize i can do.

Got booted long ago, join the club. There is a lot more practical information out here but we need both! Research, put it on the ground running like you and me and adoption. Internet is replacing the Extension system in Ohio and many places, they are also among the unemployed now along with many teachers. It's a tough world but we can make it!

I have to disagree with you here Dan. As you know I've been helping farmers conduct research on their farms specifically addressing their questions for more than two decades. The process of identifying a production issue, developing a sound plan to evaluate it, and understanding how to interpret real differences in data is invaluable to farmers and crop consultants. On-farm research is a transformational learning process that helps agriculturalists redefine their farming paradigm, sharpen their competitive edge in the industry, and perhaps most importantly contribute to a bright, productive, sustainable, profitable future for farmers. Nebraska studies show that farmers place an annual value of $ 7,000 to $12,000 on their on-farm learning experiences that include not only their findings but also those of fellow farmers that collaborate in regional on-farm research programs. These programs are typically managed by a strong, enduring partnership among farmers, private industry and extension faculty. Considering the ag industry remains under relentless scrutiny by those that don't appreciate agriculture for what it brings to the U.S. citizens and the world, I find it disturbing that those IN the industry themselves seem to seek to divide and destroy the very partners, resources and tools that are proven agriculture assets.

Dave - thanks for piping up and arguing the other side. I know you run a program that assists farmers with using formulaic approaches to on-farm research. But the average farmer doesn't have the time or possibly the skills to carry this out and I still believe that he can accomplish the same thing with blocks or strips. Even running blocks is a transformation learning process if they get out their and walk their fields and can read the language of the plant.

I guess I work with the few willing to change who doesn't fit Varner's mold. Any good ideas and help putting them into practice is truly invaluable to the farmer.

At the end of the day my goal is simply to have farmers making management decisions based on science and sound data rather than myths, casual observations and elaborate marketing campaigns.

Dan/Dave I question the fact of science in the world we live when the question has been asked of certain universities when the issue of Manganese and the chelating effects throughout the Midwest, a leading expert in academia was asked if there is no Manganese issues have tested for MN in tissue or on farm or any other research and the statement was made no I have not and I don’t need to I’ve been told there no issue’s. I believe that we are in a changing world and the research has changed dramatically look at where Agra growth was 20 years ago and they are gone now, we had 40 chemical companies 30 years ago and where down to 5-6, there's not the finical wear with all to keep loading all the cost on the growers back and by doing your on strip trials you will make it work on your farm. We are going to find out if this program works by doing on farm research on farms throughout the Midwest this year, but this cost money, but if your positive this will work I believe there should be a cost and a price to find this out before we try to sale this to the American farmer, remember that a ten year on farm trial has more impact on your farm than anyone else, data is good but it has to work on your farm first. Jeff Littrell

Number one reason for the failure of notill! I lost mine in 95 when Paul Reed convinced me to take the coulter off. It's been uphill progress and downhill compaction ever since. Cover crops help reduce mohawk roots. I am amazed how damp a soil we can plant into successfully and return to the field after a rain before anyone else.

You folks do the groundwork. I will let my yield monitor and FSA records build my checkbook!

Do the ProFarmer tour personnel get permission before entering a field?

Daniel - I hate to confess this but no. We are in and out of a field in 15 minutes. If we stopped to find a farmer we would never get anything done. In 6 years on the tour only once did a farmer operator approach me and ask what we were doing and once we told them, he was okay with it. We take three ears from a field and each ear is only worth $0.02 to $0.04. Hardly an economic loss. But I don't want to look down the barrel of a gun either.

I sort of decided I had pretty good soil health in a couple of fields..when I found puffballs growing in the middle of them..LOL. You can't get much more healthy and biologically active than forest/woods soil...so if those puffballs can survive out in the middle of a 60 acre field I must be doing something right....

Dan I if you really are looking a measuring stick look at your Morgan soil test the Humus and formazone will help in the walk, the next issue would be the breakdown of your trash, the healthier the soil the quicker the breakdown, the next visual would be the microorganisms, like a more specific selection of organic compounds, and others have the ability to find a source of energy and food value for their metabolic survival with large quantities of carbon compounds, combined with humification. Complexed polymers are broken down into simple segments. The simple segments are remanufactured by microorganisms into altogether different sequences, thus forming a complete series of new and different complex polymers and eventually forming humic acid molecules. In general, four major types of microorganisms can be found in soil: 1. Algae 2. Bacteria 3. Fungi 4. Actinomycetes In balanced soils we can see very high levels of every one of these examples, 1 gram of soil may contain 300,000 algae, 4 billion bacteria, 1 million fungi and 20 million actinomycetes. All these microorganisms are of significant value in the decomposition of organic materials. This process releases elements of nutrient value and captures Nitrogen from the atmosphere. Algae: This microscopic plant’s primary function is decomposition of organic residues and thereby making nutrients available for plant growth. Bacteria: There are many families of bacteria, the most predominant can be either aerobic, requiring air or free oxygen for life, or anaerobic, capable of growing or existing in the absence of free oxygen. Bacteria are so versatile that they can survive under extreme environmental conditions including variations of solemnities, pH conditions, temperatures of barometric pressures. Bacteria are second only to fungi in their digestive ability, and they will attack and break down almost any organic compound for use as food. They not only digest proteins and sugars, but fats, oils, cellulose and many other carbonaceous compounds. Fungi: are extensively distributed throughout our environment. All fungi are aerobic, needing free oxygen for life, and are heterotrophic, capable of utilizing only organic materials as food. Fungi are very tolerant of pH variation, living in environments ranging from acidic to alkaline. However, they seem to do best in an acidic environment. Fungi adapt well to complex food systems, specifically the polymeric compounds that are not easily decomposed by bacteria and actinomycetes. Actinomycetes: are numerous and their distribution is extensive. They are found in oceans, lakes, ponds, sediments and soils. Their abundance is second only to bacteria, and they exist in a very wide array of distinctly different family groups. In soil, they may range from 1 million to 1 billion per gram of soil. These microorganisms are efficient in breaking down the resistant compounds of both plants and animals. Jeff Littrell

Check with your local NRCS office. They should have (or be able to get) a soil quality test kit. These kits have materials and supplies that allow you to perform several different procedures that give some indication of soil quality - infiltration, respiration, bulk density, and others. The manual that comes with it details each procedure, and also offers suggestions for ameliorating poor conditions.

Better print these out and hang them on the office wall! I think about soil health everytime I walk a field and even more often than that. I have never NOT improved a field I farmed, some times to my disadvantage so long term leases and ownership are key to soil improvement. Notill was the first key. For more success, lime and drainage made it work. Balancing the soil nutrients really makes it work. Yield is the proof. Profit is the payoff. Keeping the soil covered is taking my soils to a new level of soil health resulting in increased production. NRCS was impressed with my soils today. I hope the Canadian farmers will be tomorrow, also. Any of you are welcome to our farm like Daniel and Jeff and Keith and many others have, though right now and this summer has been a great time to see what is happening in our soils. Everytime I repair a tile or dig a soil pit I am amazed and happy.

I asked Bruce Anderson fopr his reaction to my reseeding plan. "Interesting. At worst you will get annual hay crops at slightly higher cost of production. Much will depend on the competition of your 'companion crops'. Keep an eye on your pasture species in the understory of the millet. If stand looks good it may be wise to harvest millet hay early (to eliminate its competition) and not seed any rye. Maybe thicken with more pasture seed. The 10 lbs of pasture seed might be a little light but my guess is it will still give you over 50 seeds per square foot. The rye could be highly competitive and actually weaken what you have after the millet."

Bruce Anderson, University of Nebraska forage specialist made some good points that I need to consider. However I am on quest to try out this double or triple seeding approach. Over three seedings I would plant 30 lbs of grass seed mix and a single planting requires 25 lbs. I am planting 10 lbs now with millet and another 10 lbs in September with the rye and may even plant another 10 lbs in late May with a little oats if necessary. I calculated that my total investment in grass seed plus the three cereal crops over three seedings is only $100 more than one seeding of warm season grass that cost $600 – and I seeded it three times already.

I assume that is a key to Kip Cullers yields and would have been critical the past few weeks to higher yields. Add vegetable type management of the crop and you get bumper yields though we all know irrigation is not free.

That compaction at 3-4"s is the vertical tillage on wet ground. Had the same problem on some my acres that I used the RTS on. Vertical tillage is for the loamy soils that I do not farm.

Aaron - maybe from the vertical tillage but maybe not. I just know on the day we planted Keith Schlapkohl and I realized the soil was mucky below the 2 inch surface layer of soil. But it was late May, soil was warm and the surface was fit and the BRT planter was running down force so we felt that with the late date, we had no choice. And that decision back-fired.

the wave coulter at high speeds will split the dry soil underneath the penitration. In wet soils it packs it! I did use the RTS as a rotory hoe worked great to get a field of corn to emerge, but that is one dam expensive hoe!

You forgot about trucking the crop out of the field and 30 for harvesting corn and beans in pretty cheap.

What is he harvesting 200 bushel corn, 50 bushel wheat, or dryland corn at 79 bushels it all depends on the crop and yield when figuring total cost.

You also forget..that these might be fields where you can cover 300 plus acres a day...you can make a lot of money with a 24 row planter at 15 bucks an acre that way....

First reaction is who cares but that is close to mine. Dave has it right and that is where the money is. $65 is what I have in seed costs for my looks to be 200 bu corn. Now that rings a bell with me. RR seed cost way too high at $48 especially if glyphosate harms the soil. LL at $48 worth it for new genetics and weed resistance. Best buy is non GMO at $24 per acre on my farm. My hauling charge is averaging $3000 for 30,000 bu and I also can't do it myself that cheap. I don't want to be a trucker.

And just think Ed, if you had planted SmartStax's you would have gotten 250 bushel per acre. The only people who have ever tried to tell me that glyphosate is bad for the soil are the people who sell conventional herbicides, or crop consultants who are trying to justify themselves in a RR world. Monsanto isn't satan ... get over it, just as Pioneer wasn't satan when they ruled the roost for 30 plus years. 5 years ago had we had a less than a half inch of rain for the first 21 days of July like we just had, our crop would have had a big 100 bushel per acre yield. But depsite no rain during the pollination, and highs in the upper 80's everyday corn still managed to pollinate, blister and now is moving to milk stage with all the kernels right to the tip and kernel counts show yields in the 225 plus bushel range. The point is they deliver a superior product and charge accordingly.

What's it worth to have an operator that you trust and will do the work right?

55 acres of soybeans: combine fall 2009 $22.00ac trucking $0.12per bush. (approx.) chisel plow fall 2009 $14.00ac spring tillage 2010 $10.00ac X 2 passes drill beans $10.00ac (45' jd drill) 50 bags 94Y01 $51.95bg pioneer 50 bags 93M92 $45.95bg pioneer one spray pass $6.85ac (application) purity 100 $17.89 (0.7 gal.) durango $332.69 (12.9gal.) array $117.32 (49.5gal.) task force 2 $347.33 (27.5gal.) hero $283.26 (1.3gal) 2009 made just over 60 bushel per acre. a little better if you deduct out what gets flooded out each year. all work is custom. fertilizer was applied spring 2008 and will be applied in fall 2010. small time beside you guys but hope to start growing a little at a time!

Nick You sound way to much like a chemical reps hiding behind the web (ag talk), or is it Hugh grant ?

Are good comments here.

When I asked the farmer what he got for $65 he said three passes across the field. At first I thought $65 seemed expensive and I wondered later if that included trucking everything since the grower (brother and sister pair) don't live on the farm so someone has to load and haul. And the brother told me the neighbor who does the custom work likes the income and flexibility

If i was hiding behind the web, why would I use my name??? And if I was a chemical rep, why would I be for glyphosate, it equals less sales dollars for them and one would assume less money in their pocket. Also, not a seed dealer. I farm several thousand acres in southern Wisconsin. Just think it is ridculous that people think glyphosate is such a terrible thing, and the same with Monsanto.

Nick it is not ridculous that I think glyphoste is a bad thing. If we as farmers use only one technology it is a bad thing. Why do you have refuge acres on the smart staxs or any GMO for that matter. Some day you will see that repeated uses of round-up year after year was the wrong thing. You can wait till then or adapt now. As far as your smart stax... enourmous waste of money when my convential corn avgs over 200 compared to 225. Not to mention that i will not feed my beef RR corn that my kids will consume.

Aaron, it is ridiculous. So you are willing to feed your beef, that your childern will eat, the residue's of Steadfast, Harness, Hornet, Atrazine, Lorsban, Force, Balance for example. But you will say, well that isn't the same as messing with the genetic make up of a plant, well combining different molecules and calling them a pesticide is really no different. I use 6 herbicide modes of action in a 2 year rotation, have never relied on single applications of glyphosate to control weeds, and now with smartstax's I can add Liberty for a 7th mode of action. In addition on top of the refuge I now have multiple modes of action in plant to protect against insects. As for economics, first you and I can't compare yields and say that 25 bushel per acre is going to be the difference. But if we did, 25 bushel per acre is $100.00 per acre or $220-$250 per bag difference depending on seeding rate, so unless your conventional corn cost less than $35 to $65 per bag I am coming out on top, and that doesn't include any additional cost for managing weeds and pests in conventional acres, or that you aren't able to plant the newest and the best genetics as conventional seed germplasm research is minimal at best.

nick, all the herbicides you list, degrade over time. glyphosate does not. you will find it necessary to use more fungicides to secure a crop. not only on the seed but foliar as well. enjoy your short term prosperity. please do some research on the long term effects on soil activity of glyphosate. as glyphosate is a very strong chelator , you will see your soil tests for micros plummet. i agree its a slick system but will it be so in the long run. i have my doubts. one mans opinion. dave wiebke

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/glyphos.pdf Field Half life of 44 days, so it obviously does degrade. Half life of Atrazine is 60 days, Dual is 30 to 50 days. Please post links to studies that substantiate these negative soil effects that you mention and their negative impact on yield. I don't want to see a single one if it is from a manufacturer of any seed, chemical, fertilizer or other amendment. I would also be curious to hear your thoughts on why glyphosate, if it does increase disease pressure, has proven activity on asian soybean rust? If it really is so detrimental to the soil, then why during the past 15 years of RoundUp Ready Soybeans and the 36 years since RoundUp was introduced has it not been well documented, publicized and its use stopped, because if it was that bad there would significant yield losses, and its adoption would have ceased?

Nick The issue is not the breakdown on the surface but the transportation of the glyphosate to the root mass, which is the best way to broadcast chemical yet, once in the anaerobic zone glyphosate will not breakdown in fact it can take up to ten years to breakdown and better yet the next phase of this problem is AMPA which once this little problem starts you will be better of selling the farm. I would recommend you going to www.fhrfarms1.com to look at the article which no-till farmer ran on Dr. Don Huber which he spent 30 years of his life as a USDA researcher. If your so right and all the chemical dealers make more on non glyphosate chemistry, what is your real cost. your program 1. 52-54 test weight 2. tech fee $50.00 per acre 3. fungicide my program 1. 58-60 lbs. test weight, my test weight will out yield you by 14 bushels alone, yield monitors only measure volume 2. No tech fee -$50.00 per acre 3. No fungicides cost of the corn $92.00 per acre, cost of the fungicide $13.00 per acre, and the added cost of the program using GMO's $60.00 per acre ÷ $3.45 = 17.39 bushel for the cost of GMO's priceless even Iowa states economist has stated that GMO are if best 1-2 bushel advantage. give me a break its lazy mans farming.

Nick, Dave is right about the glyphosate not breaking down in the organic matter of the weeds and crops that it has been applied too. I agree that all chemicals have some adverse effect on us as well, and if you are using all the products you say thats good, but alot of farmers are using alot of round-up and that will have long term effects. Try a field of convertional.

"Unknown" I have raised RR corn for years. I have cut 60+ lb test weight corn while spraying round up with out applying a fungicide. I don't know where you get your 52 lb number. I raised conventional beans and switched to the RR technology simply because conventional chemistries don't work on the weed spectrum present. Roundup used in the correct manner does work. RR corn allows a much broader window of application in weather challenging years. No more worrying about getting Steadfast on before V7 or applying banvel products in humid 85 degree climates. And yield monitors measure WEIGHT through impact on a paddle, not volume. I have had neighbors try conventional beans again. That lasted one year. Now there is confirmed watherhemp resistance to HPPD-inhibiting herbicides in Illinois. That technology is 7 years old. I guess you can't use that in your chemical lineup anymore since it has "problems" just as glyphosate.

I used 3 gals Co Ron plus 7 gals of HOH and glyphosate with very little burn and good weed control. Maybe I was lucky with the weather.

michael, what is hoh? thanks

HOH = H2O = Water

the biggest issue is if you are doing any foliar; time, and temp are very important part of any spraying or foliaring

I want to spray a foliar with glyphosate on 400 acres. What is the best weather conditions for that? Got a week to decide and this weather is constant, hot and humid. Dramatic growth difference with two gallons, one gallon and none on late sick beans near me so I want to try it. Treated will be many bushels better where treated.

Ed - early in the morning or late afternoon. Hot and humid isn't good and could compromise weed control and especially on taller weeds. When it comes to weed control, you can't wait unless its muddy. Better to get out there first thing in the morning when there is some due and the plant is physiologically active.

dan, i would love to have gps capable systems from planter to sprayer to combine. i do grid sample the soil, but for someone in the hobby farm group( less than a section), it is still out of reach. what happens to the dated systems so a guy could get his foot in the door? i mean a five plus year old set up without all the latest bells and whistles. i never hear of any used stuff like that. thanks dave wiebke

Some of the economics studies show that precision ag works for both small growers and large growers. However it seems to me that the buy-in cost per acre for a small producer is to high to be justifiable. However you can hire some of the work done like variable rate application. But in the end you will have to buy some gadgets and it will take more years to pay off since you have less acres. It is tough to find used equipment - just try to find a yield monitor - not easy. And technology changes rapidly and the gadget you buy this year will be basically obsolete in 3+ years.

I attended two days of sessions and felt overwhelmed - not from the fact there is are new and exciting technologies because I didn't feel there were any but from sitting on my bums for a couple days listening to presentations validating these new technologies. Here is how it all works, if you haven't already realized this. A company or person invents a technology or machine, they market it, farmers buy it and then universities researchers come along a bit later after the technology has been introduced and want money to research its effects on production. So they come up with scientific conclusions that farmers already learned a few years earlier. That is the jist of what I got out of the conference. However one of the new emphasis is using some of these technologies to ascertain and track carbon pools in the soil as part of the carbon sequestration emphasis.

I am a relatively small, small-grain farmer in ND. I started using GIS tools from Farm Works because they were affordable and effective. Disclaimer-I have since become a dealer for FW. In addition we are doing Variable Rate N application and Yield mapping (all using Farm Works). It does take a commitment to make it work. Biggest savings so far are in N useage. Next goal is to use profit mapping to identify non-profitable areas and put them into forage production for a few years. In the least it will bump my crop insurance yields, and maybe make me more profit but eliminating maybe 30 acres of money-losing production. And in a few years maybe the soil will be better when we work it back up.

Precision Ag is about three things - one is collecting data to change you you do things (such as grind sampling), second is about have the equipment to make that change (such as variable rate application) and third is having the skills and committment to process the data, translate it into information and then turn it into a decision that you can implement and improve your bottom line. Sometimes I think the biggest drawback for the small operator is just have the equipment to change what they are doing. I am a fan of the technology but being a small operator means I can't invest much in application equipment

I would spray with drops but not just glyphosate, something labeled for the weeds and corn that isn't just glyphosate. Glad I did it here.

As you know I always inoculate and this year I had it put on the seed and put more in the seedbox and the crop has never been pale or yellow. It turned black green quicker than ever and the N levels in the tissue tests have been high to excessive. I did the same to double crops and they came out of the ground green, not yellow like others. Don't speculate, inoculate!

Our seed company innoculates all the seed it sells. They make a small margin on it..but I believe the benefit to the grower is probably the biggest selling point. It saves handling innoculant in the field...bridging over runs in the drill with innoculant that sticks together...and adds bacteria that is more efficient at developing nodules on our soybeans. Whether or not additional innoculant (in the planter/drill) adds to the effect is probably pretty hard to quantify. I noticed on a field of popcorn that I had to re-plant to beans...that the beans almost immediately turned dark green compared to the beans planted across the driveway into cornstalks. I can only assume..that planting beans back to beans added quite a bit of bacteria to the soil solution..and that the roots are being inoculated quite a bit faster.

They have it figured out, Dave. I want rhizobia on all treated legumes and SabrEx on them and corn, wheat etc. Deliver it and I will buy it.

remember we are paying a little extra for that bag of seed corn

And if you're planting glyphosate tolerant corn...you have to figure the cost of applying a clean up herbicide in the beans the next year for the volunteer corn. On that note..I priced generic Clethodim yesterday at my local Co-Op..@$143/gallon...then checked it on XSAg's website. $65-$73/gallon delivered to your door. Makes planning for your chemical application a very profitable endeavor.

The cost your chemical program is not $5.00-$10.00 per acre, but more like $55.00 - $65.00 per acre when the tech fee is figured in the cost, which I use generic lumax at $25.00 per acre which is $30.00 - $40.00 per acre cheaper, and I don’t spend anything to take out volunteer corn next year. The average corn acres is about 900 ( on average) acres X $35.00 (average cost) = $31,500.00 X 10 years = $315,000.00 that’s about a 80 acre parcel of land free every 10 years, I don’t think the math works Dan.

That program is failing. It has failed the south and will fail the rest of the country. Rotate your crops, rotate your chemistry and start planting cover crops!

i believe the long term costs of the roundup program will be staggering. a big price to pay for short term for pretty fields. it is the gift that keeps on giving. now how do you get rid of it? it is still there. question every thing you have been told. dave wiebke

ed, what cover crops do you like? i tried spring oats on 10 acres and notilled corn into the oats. didnt work but i think i seeded the oats to heavy and believe it or not the oats were hard to kill. another failed experiment! dave wiebke

ed, what cover crops do you like? i tried spring oats on 10 acres and notilled corn into the oats. didnt work but i think i seeded the oats to heavy and believe it or not the oats were hard to kill. another failed experiment! dave wiebke

Dave?..did you plant spring oats in March..and then try to plant corn in April? I think a light (less than 90 lbs.) application of wheat, (disked or drilled in the fall) will be a better answer, and the wheat will remove a lot of excess moisture if you get it up a foot tall before trying to kill it.

ed, spring oats planted 1st week of april, notilled corn 1st week of may. seeded 3 bu bin run cleaned oats,should have cut that in half or killed earlier as may was dry here. 12 oz of ignite plus mso plus ams dinged the oats hard but didnt take it down. intriguing concept though. sometimes i wish i wasnt on the corner of 2 main hiways, my experiments are there for all to see! it is nice in the winter though. thanks , ed will give a whirl at the fall seeding of wheat away from the road. dave wiebke